THE SLITS
Ari and the author, backstage at CBGB's, August 2005, photo by Reuben Cervera
Notice which one of us is awake
Ari Up shared her punky reggae wisdom
Interview by Jason Gross, Part 1
(October 2024)
Back in September 2000, my long-time music bud, Reuben Cervera of Razor and Tie Records, went with me to the now-shuttered NYC Lower East Side haunt Brownie's to see a legend. Singer Ari Up formerly of the Slits was performing with her new band the True Warriors and integrating herself into New York culture. He introduced me to her briefly before the show and after seeing her live, I was floored by what a force of nature she was. It wasn't just her mile-long dreadlocks or siren-like voice but also her stage presence and forceful-but-fun-loving attitude that made me think that she'd lost nothing of her style from the past few decades.
When the Slits started out in London in '76, the punk revolution was just igniting and the 14-year-old, German born Ariane Forster plus drummer Palmolive, guitarist Viv Albertine and bassist Tessa Pollitt formed the core of the band for its first two years. Soon after transforming into a punky reggae style (with new drummer Budgie), the group hooked up with dub producer Dennis Bovell to release their ground-breaking 1979 debut Cut. It was also then that Ari's mum Nora Forster (who was a model/actress/promoter) married Johnny Lydon, making the Sex Pistols/PiL singer Ari's step-dad. The Slits' second album, 1981's Return of the Giant Slits, (co-produced by Bovell and featuring Neneh Cherry and future PiL drummer Bruce Smith) was more minimal, primal and experimental not to mention underrated. When the Slits split in '82, Ari worked with dub master Adrian Sherwood in New Age Steppers and moved around overseas, including Jamaica, before landing in Gotham, which is where the story picks up again...
Not long after I met her, I made arrangements to interview Ari later in 2000 at her Brooklyn apartment (with her son Winton roaming around, trying to get breakfast)- though I stupidly didn't date the cassette I recorded the interview on, her mention of a recent Cut reissue would put the chat at the start of the millennium. The following year when the 9/11 tragedy happened and The Village Voice, who I was freelancing for, were putting together a benefit album for September 11th Victim Compensation Fund, I convinced Ari to contribute to the album, giving them a version of the '60's girl group classic "Don't Say Nothing Bad About My Baby" as "Don't Say Nothing bad About NY." Ari also performing a benefit concert at the Knitting Factory, where her long twirling hair accidentally hit her young son Winton in the eye on stage. As I detailed in this blog post, I wrote about her for The Voice but as we became friends, with my girlfriend and I going out to movies, dinner, etc. with her, I had to explain to Ari that I couldn't objectively write reviews about her anymore, though I'd be glad to brainstorm with her about her work/career. Our phone conversations ranged from her raging/yelling about an unscrupulous manager to her singing me a lullaby when I was sick. I even got to chat with Nora once on the phone, who sounded just like Ari, with the same thick, breathy German accent (Nora died last year, with Lydon caring for her in her final years).
Meanwhile, shortly after Ari restarted her solo career in the mid-2000's, she not only recorded with legendary reggae producer Lee Perry but also reactivated the Slits with Tessa. The band restarted with a 2006 EP, Revenge of the Killer Slits, featuring ex-Pistols drummer Paul Cook and former members of Adam and the Ants and would also feature Cook's daughter Hollie Cook, who would go on to her own impressive solo career. The long awaited third Slits album finally came out in 2009, Trapped Animal. Sadly, this would turn out to be their final album. Though it wasn't public at the time, Ari was battling cancer, finally succumbing to it in 2010. I never heard a word from her before about her health problems and was stunned when I found out, amazed that such a vivacious person like Ari could die at the age of 48. Since then, I kept a picture of her and me backstage at CBGB's in 2005 above my desk (which you see at the top of the article here).
Cue to November 2023, when Grace Ambrose was having a screening of Kleenex/Liliput's "Road Movie" at Anthology Film Archives to celebrate her wonderful book about the Swiss punk band, which included an interview I did with the late guitarist Marlene Marder (appropriately enough, Cervera was there with me for the screening). After meeting with Grace afterwards and thanking each other for stanning for the band, I also met author/editor Jenn Pelly, who was the panel moderator for the evening, and who had written the great 33/3 series book on the Raincoats (and was responsible for the Bikini Kill reunion). When I asked her what she was working on now, she mentioned that her new project was about the connections between the female UK punk bands in the mid/late '70's. That's when I remembered that I had the interview with Ari and had actually never transcribed it. Pelly was excited about that and I promised her that I would get to work on it.
And so I finally did, nearly a year later. Though the focus of the chat with Ari was reggae music, she hit on a lot of things, including what held the Slits back (not just sexism), how the band interacted with the Pistols and the Clash, why she hated Elvis Costello and the '80's but respected Sting, a literal spat with Boy George, some pity for Billy Idol, some cutting words about UB40 and her hopes for a Slits reunion, which would happen a few years later.
PSF: The first material I heard from the Slits was "A Boring Life."
AU: (surprised) That was the first shit you heard of us! Can you believe that? I don't know what the fuck that was FROM. (laughs) Was it a bootleg?
PSF: Yeah, basically. [NOTE: the album was put out by their manager Dick O'Dell but subtitled as a 'bootleg' so go figure]
AU: And people must have hated it.
PSF: No, actually, some people liked it.
AU: I loved it. The humor of it.
PSF: I thought it was a fun record. Was that some of the first recordings of the band?
AU: Yes, that's why we did it. It was some of the first, worst rehearsals. We were all about humor.
PSF: Oh yeah, it it's obvious when you listen to that. But when I listen to it now, I just wonder what changed for the band and why the group sounded so different later.
AU: Yeah, that's a good question. It's a long story. (laughs) Lemme try to shorten it... I definitely wanna copy of this tape- it's summing up my life here. OK, our roots lay in reggae and punk always. Being that was our early stuff and the John Peel sessions, which was later released, and which we also played the hardcore punk stuff that we played at the radio show for Peel (1977, later released in 1998). And notice that there's a lot of tribal shit going on, even the way that we did the punky music. It was very tribal and very female. And very different. And I'm really into it now 'cause I'm really a fan of it. Back then, I really didn't know anything. I was just too in it to know I was a fan, you know? But now I really appreciate it.
So anyway, that stuff was hardcore 'cause we were in the 'punk' scene, so called, the media termed it. Not in the reggae scene 'cause there was this thing being that there was all this tension, whose place is whose to play what. First, it was politically incorrect- we're not allowed to play reggae. That was the first thing. Second thing was, we felt that we couldn't. So if we couldn't, what the fuck were we doing and we'd have to practice it first. So we did. And while we were practicing it over the years and developing the style, then when we developed it, then we recorded it. But when we didn't have it, we played what we could play. It was as simple as that.
PSF: So even when the Slits started, you always intended to play reggae?
AU: I think that but it was never (an) intellectual decision 'cause again, this is a heart thing. Growing up in a heavy revolution and a movement in that type of environment, it's all a feeling thing. So every day that you're fed reggae and you go to wherever you go, you hear reggae, you're not gonna make an intellectual decision, "oh, let's play reggae now." It's just wider- you hear it all the time and you start deciding... you start doing riffs that sound more and more reggae! But then the two things that would stop you, like I said, would be politically, which stopped all others I'm sure, the political part of it 'cause they couldn't over-bridge that gap. "Hey, music's music, let's just do it." Because look at John (Lydon)- he's the biggest reggae fan but you'd never know it with his music 'cause the Pistols were NEVER reggae influenced. They didn't know reggae. And that was a POLITICAL decision.
PSF: By who?
AU: By John and everyone else.
PSF: But when you're saying he's such a fan...
AU: He's such a fan though. To him, it's like, white people must play white music. Leave it to black people. I can even quote him on that.
PSF: But later with Public Image Ltd., he was playing stuff that was very reggae influenced.
AU: (laughs) Ah! But we laid the ground for it! Making it acceptable maybe, huh? I mean, the Clash and the Slits made it acceptable.
He was very against the Clash. He was always enemies with the Clash. HATED how they played, HATED how their political thing and probably hated how they were mixing with the reggae edge. And he LOVED the Slits, was absolutely the biggest fan. So were we of the Pistols of course. And no matter how they were into not putting reggae into their music, we were great Pistols fans. And no matter how much reggae we put into Slits things, he was a great Slits fan. So it wasn't offensive to him when we did it.
But on a general thing, he had this thing, you know... politically being incorrect. And he has a point. It has to be in context though because I don't wanna be rattling on him on a negative thing. The thing is, he has a very big point, which I agree with, which is that white kids intellectually, pretentiously make a decision, "let's do this 'cause we wanna be able to do it," and then they can't. And then they're scared to mention something like UB40, where it's ridiculous. I mean, they probably think, "hey we just love reggae" and they wanna play reggae and it's fine. But to me, it's not a heart thing. To me, it's an intellectual white boy thing where they can just play reggae, get away with it, be on the pop charts. And it is reggae, acknowledged. It is reggae, but for the dentist's office. If you wanna call it 'reggae for the dentist's office,' fine. Watered down, diluted.
And that's the thing that John has a big point and we all wanna get away from. We don't wanna be in that bracket. And we wouldn't wanna be disrespected by our rasta colleagues, and reggae colleagues. I guess he wouldn't want that, being how John was surrounded by reggae artists. He was literally bombarded by reggae artists coming to his house, partying and such. Actually, that was more in the PiL days and he did play more reggae but that was 'cause of (Jah) Wobble too. And Wobble was a total straight boy, loving reggae and he just said, "I'm playing it." I mean, he didn't make no intellectual decision. Wobble is just like HARDCORE- he would be either great to hang out with or he'd be dangerous. He could be very dangerous. I mean, he could be like... You gotta be real around Wobble and so he was and so he had a right to play his reggae the way he wanted. And guys would have to accept it 'cause he wasn't doing it fake. And I think John was just worried because Bo Derek was out with braids and we didn't wanna be associated with doing something that's not our thing to do. That was "white people can't play the music so just stop playing."
PSF: What about the Police? Where did they fall into your thinking about white people playing reggae?
AU: Well, that's a different thing. Let me get to that in a minute 'cause that's kind of skipping a whole thing. I'm definitely getting back to that, after I finish with this.
What I was saying is that.. back to how we started and how we started playing reggae and we're going to get to the Police and Chrissie Hynde, Boy George, Debby Harry and everybody. (laughs)
(Takes a break to talk to her son Wilton- to tell him where the milk and cereal is)
With the Slits and the Clash, there was a few of us who did it from the heart, eventually. What happened was, we went to rehearsal and I used to jump on the drums. I was a really good drummer. I listened to nothing but reggae so I started playing some pretty good reggae drums. I was really good at it. And then Tessa was into reggae always, from the get go and loved reggae from the heart. You heard it in the Slits where Tessa was the bass player and she was also into playing round, deep bassy reggae lines. So we just did it by jamming and eventually, that's how Cut came about. We were able to find that sound but it just developed gradually. It wasn't a decision.
PSF: How did Dennis Bovell come into the picture for the Slits?
AU: That happened 'cause Dennis was always playing around with dub and punk groups. Somehow we knew about him. I think he wasn't with punk groups but he knew punk groups. Somehow he was with Island (Records). I know.. he was with... What was his name... Linton Kwesi Johnson, he was a poet, and he was signed the very same week that the Slits were. And Dennis Bovell was his producer. So we wanted a dub producer feeling who could bring out stuff together more than anyone else could. No one else knew... Engineers at the time didn't know anything about dub. So we didn't want a regular engineer mixing a hardcore punk thing 'cause we weren't totally punk at the time. So we were... punk roots reggae. I never thought of that before. Roots punk first, then reggae. We needed a dub producer and that's how that came up. And dealings were made, back and forth. And then we just started in the studio with him and it was perfect. He was like directing the whole thing with us. He was in it with us like a musician. He was fully into it- he wasn't just sitting there engineering. He was fully part of the project like if it was his baby, as if it was his band and everything. Although we had our own arrangements and had written our songs, it was really good to have him help out that way and fill in stuff here and there. Like on "New Town," he was playing the organ and the matchsticks that were dropping, you know. He would light a match for percussion and hit some table stuff. All the stuff on "New Town" and why it sounds so brilliant. Ah, he dropped a fork on the table! So you heard "ch-ku ch-ku," lighting the match, and then 'trrrrrr" with the fork. It's brilliant. It's just been re-released in England again.
And you know what? If I turn into a solo superstar, God forbid, the world will be rocked, and I will bring back the Slits, full! To go platinum. And you know why? That shit is timeless! What we did... I didn't realize but I'm bragging now... Instead of bragging, it's more like I'm an enthusiastic fan talking. And now I'm a fan of all three stages. There was the heavy hardcore tribal punk female energy, making a structure totally different from any other punk. And punk was even a phenomenon at the time, the music itself. So imagine us being again different from other punks. It's like unheard of. Now, I think the music would sound great on movie tracks. Now I think people accept it and say, "this is great pop music."
At the time, it was like "they can't even play!" And we started believing it 'cause we were brainwashed. "They can't even play!" That's why we took so long to do the Cut album and the reggae sound. Not only were we not allowed to play reggae politically, we were constantly brainwashed. "You can't play!" We were into the punk philosophy anyway of jumping on the stage and not being able to play. That was the philosophy to begin with 'cause at the beginning, we only had a few rehearsals and we really couldn't play, so we did develop along the way to play better.
But there was a point, long before we had a record deal, long before Cut where we really could play. And people were still, "Oh, you don't..." And we took it to (think) "Oh, we can't play." I think that's how we missed a record deal even in that early time, to really bring out a hardcore punk album, with those early John Peel sessions and on that album that you first heard again. What was it called?
PSF: Once Upon A Time In A Living Room.
AU: Oh, fucking great! 'Cause it was once upon a time in a living room, especially with me and Nina Hagen (for the acoustic version of "Number One Enemy"). We did a Slits song. She was playing acoustic guitar. (singing) "I'm gonna be your number one enemy!" It was me, but it was really a Slits song. So anyway, we could have made a record deal and released it at that time but I think there were two elements. One is, we were brainwashed, thinking we weren't ready. And the other element was that politically, we were sabotaged 'cause it was like "we don't want women!' I think record deals took everyone else but the Slits, they were scared of us. They might have thought, "good thing to cash in on- trendy, punky, female, let's do that." But they wanted changes. They were scared to take us as we were. As soon as we were negotiating and as soon as we wanted to be who we wanted to be, we noticed changes they wanted right away. "Change your music to that." "Change your look to that." What's the fucking point to that?
So there's two elements to why we didn't get to the Cut album on Island until that time. But by the time we got to Island and Cut, we fully developed our sound automatically by procedure. So it went from stage to stage.
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| Ari with Reuben Cervera at Irving Plaza, early 2000's; Ari and Reuben, Brownie's, September 2000 | |
PSF: Do you think that Bovell also helped you in realizing the sound that you wanted, helping you and educating you about the music and the studio?
AU: Yeah! He helped us and educated us but it was us doing it. It wasn't like he was...
PSF: A puppet-master.
AU: (laughs) Yeah, it was definitely a collaboration. Of course he helped us. Hell yeah. I mean he put that together for our vision of what we wanted to be a dub band but with our punk roots, which we had even more than the Clash 'cause the Clash did a punky reggae with a very rocky edge, which is more guitar orientated.
PSF: Which is the next thing I was gonna ask about...
AU: (laughs) Ah! There we go!
So we still haven't gotten to Sting yet but we're gonna get to him! I won't forget that 'cause that's a whole new wave stage. Haven't mentioned that cursed word yet. NEW WAVE! We haven't gotten to it. (laughs)
PSF: OK, so I wanted to ask you about the Clash, how they approached reggae and what you thought of that.
AU: We loved them of course. And they were our pals. We probably couldn't even be objective if we wanted to. We were just obsessed with them, you know. We knew they were a good band- it wasn't just 'cause we were friends. It was just friends- we were FAMILY. And you know - it wasn't just family. We knew this was a legend band and a great band. And we knew that they were really hardcore, from the streets and what they really were. And they also had that great character that you, really know... I mean, so many times, we hear great music and it's always a shame that you meet the artist after a while 'cause they're assholes and they're nothing like what the music is doing. So it's really sad. But with the Clash, you can't go wrong. They were really nice guys.
PSF: How would you rate the way they played reggae music?
AU: They're not a reggae band. They were PUNKY reggae. That's the whole thing about them. They were more punk than reggae, because they had the not-that-heavy bass that we had. We were more punky reggae than them. But they put punky reggae out there to all the rest of the new wave. Now, we're gonna get serious, to more acknowledged people like the Police or other bands because they were more commercially popular than we were as the Slits. So when they came up with something punky reggae, it was not only acknowledged that it could be politically correct but it was also acknowledged as the creativity was great. And of course we loved it a lot 'cause it didn't have to be REGGGAE like reggae was. It didn't have to be like our punky reggae was. It was the Clash punky reggae. Why should it be like ours or anyone else's? It was THEIRS.
And it was the boy's club, don't forget. Boy's club was different from girl's club. We were very female. Look at Tina (Weymouth) from Tom Tom Club. Very female bass and she had the funkiest bass that had ever been written on the earth. (singing) Doodle-doo-doo-doo-doo-doooo! And all her bass (parts) are very female, so it was easy for us to round out that whole reggae deep bass feeling. And we were female and they were the boy's club. Boys have a different edge to music so they were in the punky reggae differently.
They also had the political thing where they wanted to be more sticking to their punky selves but just giving that edge. They did "Police and Thieves." And it's not that they selected it and decided intellectually, "we're gonna play reggae." Again, it's one of those heart things you know, where you grow up with this shit every day and listen to Lee Perry every day. So, we heard "Police and Thieves" on the White Riot tour bus and we heard it every day and we loved it every day, and what do you do in the end? You do a cover. But they just did a cover with it more of as a Clash song. If we would have done it, it would have been more "Man Nex Door" (another cover that the Slits did), with more dub and more reggae. And other bands, I don't think.. That's the thing that came across as far as I know.
PSF: So you think it was only a two band movement?
AU: It was only two bands 'cause we were the only ones. That's right. Because when we acknowledged and it became a fanatic fad, then NEW WAVE came in and when the Clash became famous as a pop group.
PSF: Well, what about Mark Perry (Alternative TV) and some of the stuff he was doing then?
AU: Oh yeah! Mark Perry. I wanted to mention him before when we were talking about when it was politically incorrect. And when we weren't ready or whatever, when we were playing 'wrong' and when we were talking about John (Lydon) and whether it was right to do because of the segregation or whatever. And I was gonna mention Mark. He was one of the people who decided... "who gives a shit?" He was totally breaking down that too. And like "fuck the politically correct... I'm going do it." But he had a totally different approach. And it's a really good thing that you put it there because we move so quick that Mark Perry was non-stop in my head when we were talking about John. I was gonna get to Mark. You know why? 'Cause I think that John and Mark were pretty (opposed)... 'Cause again, that same thing. Mark thought, "hey, play reggae!" John thought "hey, let's only listen to it!" But Mark went into the studio, learning reggae from reggae musicians, like a college student. He was like "do it like this and that," totally directed. And his little band was really like really getting the hang of it and there was no punk. There was strictly dub, reggae. They were learning and doing, but they were doing it from the heart, not like an intellectual thing, commercial thing like other groups out there. But again that was the punky reggae thing. That's Mark saying "let me do the full reggae." Of course there were Keith (Levene) who was already fucking around with reggae but he wasn't in a group anymore. He was extreme whatever, Flowers of Romance. And then there was... I think that Patti Smith was messing and she was messing around with reggae live a lot.
PSF: And they put out Tapper Zukie on her label (Mer).
AU: Right! Now you took another name out of me 'cause I remember she used to jump on stage with Tapper Zukie and she was dancing reggae and she was totally into reggae. And she was definitely part of that. But the thing is, on her records when she got more known, you don't really hear that she came from that. That whole movement was that the Clash, the Slits and then it went forward. Then there was this whole new wave explosion where the Clash got more famous in the pop market. And then the Slits in that they broke big ground whether underground or wherever- we're not commercial but we're legendary. So then of course there was everybody like Chrissie Hynde, Boy Goerge, Debbie Harry, Sting. All of them not necessarily doing reggae, punky reggae from a.. not necessarily doing that... I'd say each one is a different story. I would say for instance that Sting was truly inspired by the Slits. When he heard Cut, he loved the drummer. He was non-stop talking about the drummer. So when he was so much into drumming, I believe... I don't know when he did his stuff around the same time. When did he do...?
PSF: '78, '79 is when they did their first two albums.
AU: And it was punky reggae, right?
PSF: Well, first they kind of started as a punk band but once they signed with IRS, they started to do more reggae.
AU: I think that also has to do with... they came on the scene supporting bands like the Clash and the Slits. I remember when the Police supported us. And they were hearing the punky reggae coming from us too.
PSF: What did they sound like then?
AU: Punk! That's what they were playing and I don't remember any reggae (from them) at the time! (laughs) Although they were considering it. To me, that isn't even punky reggae that they were doing. To me, that was... new wave. What they called new wave, which I to this day don't know what new wave means. Sorry. (laughs)
PSF: Well, it was a marketing term.
AU: Yeah, but it isn't punk. It was pseudo-intellectual, commercial...
PSF: It was a way for them to sell music and not make it sound so edgy.
AU: Right, right. And then it's called new wave. And Blondie went on that and everybody went on that. Some people did it great, some people did it intellectually, some people did it... You know like who I really hate for instance is Elvis Costello in that way because to me, some people thought it was BRILLIANT. You know, new wave reggae but to me, it was very "where the fuck did it come from and what the fuck is it?" I don't know. You know, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to splash Elvis here but usually I don't but I say "what the fuck." I'm a foundation for so many. Why not? Fuck it. But I'll say Elvis Costello, no, that's not the way to pick up reggae music. (NOTE: she's probably referring to his song "Watching the Detectives"). UB40, not the way to pick up reggae.
Sting I can forgive because they grew up in that whole punky thing and then they swung into the pop market because of the new wave thing. Somehow they caught the MTV market. They had a good timing of somehow being swung in where it was allowed. Like Adam and the Ants, it was allowed to be from punk commercially into new wave. So, you know, Billy Idol and Adam, who didn't touch the reggae thing I believe. (laughs) Even though he was thinking of the tribal thing but there was very little tribal- it was more clowning. So was... what's his name... Billy Idol, a big clown. The poor thing. I feel sorry for him now, we used to torment him- The Slits, the Clash, the Pistols, all of us used to torment him. Used to come to my mom's house and crash. And he was like a little baby, you know. And feeling so insecure- "Oh why don't they like me?" (fake crying). 'Cause he was so like... he should have been born in the '50's. He was like a '50's guy, trying to be a rebel in the punk scene. But he got away from that now- he got commercial and he got famous.
Sting again, he latched onto the new wave thing, I think, and by that time, the American yuppie market in the fucking, sucking '80's. (fake excitement) "Oh, they got their dick hard! Oh, this is reggae, this is punk!" But it wasn't reggae, it wasn't punk. It was neither one of those things. So when you now look at it, it's a legendary rock act 'cause when they hear it now, it's like "Oh yeah, it's great!" Even young kids in their 20's will say, "Oh yeah- Sting, that is the real shit!" And yes, it was a real shit developing sound because it was rock developing sound. It was a form of rock. It wasn't punk, it wasn't reggae.
PSF: As much as you hate it though, don't you think...
AU: Wait a minute- I don't necessarily hate it. I never said that I hated Sting. I said that I hated Elvis Costello, I hated... Billy Idol and Adam (Ant) was a clown. But like I said, I'm being very different on the approach to Sting because he was listening to punk, listening to us, and getting punky reggae into a commercial market, latching onto the new wave thing, which he thought probably was the newest step on punk. I'm sure they didn't mean no harm by it and I don't think they think to take it as nothing. I have this feeling that they were being sincere guys. I'm feeling that Sting was a sincere guy and he's still a sincere guy. And he dresses well and he keeps himself together well.
I just think that it's too bad that the Americans at that time didn't get punky reggae. It's almost the media's fault and not his. "Oh, that's the new wave of punk and that's the reggae!" He was just like really into reggae of course. I mean, he was saying that he was really into reggae. Did he ever quote that he was playing reggae?
PSF: I don't know. That's a good question.
AU: You see! That's why I don't really wanna say that I hate them because I think they were so into punk and reggae at the time when they were listening to us and reggae that he used that new wave pop market and then just developed it the way he did. I'm sure John hated it because that's where he would politically say, "don't play reggae when you don't know how to play it- don't be a white guy playing reggae." (laughs)
This would be perfect I think for somebody like us at the time to say then but me as Ari now, we're able to analyze it at a different angle. I don't think he (Sting) was intellectually cashing in, the way that UB40 did. I think he was more like reggae and he was almost naive about it. He loved reggae, he loved punk but he couldn't do both of them. (laughs) So he was like "I'M DOING IT! ROCK STAR!!!!" And he was probably influenced by the Clash and poor thing didn't know that it wasn't punky reggae but the rest of the world thought it was. Isn't that the irony? But I would now say, listening back, it's a nice album they have. They wrote good melodies.
PSF: They had their moments.
AU: They had their moments. I think it's a bad rap that they got. Some people would say (sarcastically) "Oh yeah, punky reggae..." But I don't think that way- I think it's just the '80's wave. He was playing the market people but not finding out who was the real shit then. They should have made sure that fine people like the Slits made it. Why didn't they? We should have been on VH1 as one of the best fucking girl bands in the world.
PSF: They go for looks, and whoever the new kids are, and novelty.
AU: Thank you! So it's their fault! And they're gonna say that Sting is punky reggae forever until someone steps up and says "Wait a minute..." Maybe they say a little about the Clash... the market will say more. The Clash were a brilliant rebellious punk boy band, with the great pants, and the great clothes and the greet boys club thing. But the reggae thing is not in those styles. Paul Simonon more than anyone was a total reggae fanatic like John, but without the hang-ups- John has a lot of conflicts about being politically correct. But Paul was like, "hey, just play it," like Jah Wobble did.
PSF: You talked about how new wave latched onto reggae commercially. Were there positive things that came out of the reggae/punk connection too?
AU: Uh... OK, that's a really good question. I would have gotten to that later, mentioning the 90's and the Riot Grrls and the reggae and the hip hop and everything. These are good things coming out of it. But in the 80's, ZERO, SHIT CAME OUT IT!!! Let's just skip the 80's. I would say for instance, people were influenced by us, like Chrissie Hynde. Again, can't say that she was being... pseudo-intellectually commercial. Again, she was rock. Listened to reggae with us all the time. Was inspired by Slits. And again, I could never say why she... Again, she was playing a little reggae flavor and everything and a little dancing and a little skanking. Again... it was commercial sounding to America and it was a commercial rock market and a new wave market. But she herself wasn't pretentious about it- she grew up out of our thing.
Then again, there was... Who else was there? Boy George! That is a whole different issue again because Boy George grew up around us, following us. He went and ran around every reggae studio he could to hang around rastas. So I can't really say that he was being pretentious about it or pseudo intellectual, deciding that he was gonna cash in on it. But then again, at a party, I had a really bad reaction on him when he used to be a Slits fan. I spotted him apparently and he told me that I spit at him. I instinctively spit on him and I don't know why to this day but I was a very instinctive animal at the time. And later he was, you know.. even though he grew up out of punk and reggae, I think that (Culture Club) was a little too polished for me. I think that Boy George, bless his soul, he means well in a way. But again, that was very... he's saying "Do you really wanna hurt me?" it's like a lover's kind of reggae but then but maybe someone else will argue "how will he be commercially accepted if he did play real reggae?" No one would hear him. So there's a good debate on all of these people.
But to me, the whole 80's thing, even Debbie Harry did the reggae thing ("The Tide Is High"), that was a very political decision made by her band members. And I think they just said "here!" and stick on it and made Debbie listened to it and learned it like a student so they had her do a version of that in a rocksteady sound. And she did it very well but thing is, was it a decision of the heart or was it a political, commercial decision. To me, that whole 80's thing, whoever was involved with it, whether they meant to or not, somehow got into that whole commercial hole. It wasn't punky reggae and it wasn't punk and it wasn't reggae- it was something else. Whether they meant to be fucked up about it and cashing in or whatever else they thought, that's just the yuppie 80's. Even reggae sucked in the '80's for a while, with the fucking around with the computer, trying to get it right.
Yeah, but you see a big revolution turnover in the 90's, dancehall style sounding brilliant. And I lived a big part of it. I lived in Jamaica and I turned into what they called Medusa and I had a big dance and design over there. And I was famous in Jamaica- little kids running (up to me) for autographs. So I'm part of the whole dancehall thing but the dancehall thing, when it turned into a heavy mixture of African power and punk. And in the '90's, they started looking like punk, they were rebellious like punk, and reggae. They started being punks, which wasn't... They had the punk attitude we had.
PSF: So it all came around then.
AU: It all came around and it was in their nature anyway because Jamaican people, they're harder than punk. If they're not stopped by religious purposes or heavy rasta stuff, and they be punk but the spiritual elements are almost all missing.
But in the '90's, there was a turn because of the crack. The '80's were taken over by yuppies and crack and computers, so all very unspiritual elements. So then in the '90's, what good came out of the whole punk/reggae thing, to get back to your question, in the reggae scene what came out of it was instinctively with the oncoming of hip hop as well, the mixture of spiritual reggae music is there again and hardcore dancehall. Dancehall juggling which used to be called raggamuffin can be anything from social rebellious lyrics like punk or it can be about dancing and sexy girls, which is pretty dumb as usual. (laughs) Or it can have lots of sexual lyrics which you can listen to or go with 'cause it's kind of funny. Some of them are funny 'cause even the sexual lyrics are kind of open and punky and explicit so it's a mixture of punk in there with reggae, you know.
And then there also are people who came like Luciano, a couple of very spiritual rasta people came back in the 90's, bringing back reggae alive, which Is where you can choose now from dancehall and sort of reggae cultural dub selection. But it's not dub the way WE knew. The fucking real hardcore dub spiritual, completely unorthodox. Just total roots reggae- very few people acknowledge and know it. What good came of it is England has an obsessive new crowd in their 20s who are crying eye-water, as they say in Jamaica. They cry EYE-EYE-WATER! (speaking with a Jamaican accent). Real, and missing out on dub before. Coming to me, (excited) "oh you were there at Shaka, you were there at the dub sound!" They want tapes of dub, they want records of dub, they're just obsessed. So I think there's a big movement there in England coming in, right from the 90's. Really longing to hear dub the way it initially was. Jamaica, on the other hand, refuses... I mean, do they even know D-U-B?
PSF: You mean nowadays?
AU: NOW! They don't even know the word D-U-B! I don't think they acknowledge anything to do with dub. The only thing they will acknowledge now in the reggae scene is the few rasta people like I said who came to the forefront in the 90's, bringing it back. Had to make a mixture of "let's bring in real reggae and dub but with a real modern edge." So it's now like a computerized modern edge mixed with dub. Never the same as it was but a new form. So fine, now it's acknowledged that real reggae culture. Now they call it "CULTURE." Throughout the '90's, Jamaicans would say, "oh, you do culture" or "you like culture." Meaning that it's cultured, it's not just crazy dancehall reggae. Computer reggae is 'culture.' But do they acknowledge heavy hardcore King Tubby dub? They don't even know Lee Perry! If I was to say to any Jamaican now, "do you know who Lee Perry is?" "Who...?" Not a single soul would know Lee Perry, mark my words. Lee Perry knows it, that's why he's here.
PSF: Actually, I think he's in Switzerland now.
AU: Oh... even worse. He knows it and he's even further away! The further the better, and the near England, the better, 'cause that's where the heart of dub is more. Jamaica can forget it. Nothing good came out of dub with Jamaica. BUT... dancehall itself, being that reggae is roots music in Jamaica, what goes around, comes around. So now it's coming around again. It's much more African again, it's much more hardcore. You have a selection of stuff that you can really enjoy. And if you're part of the scene, and you go to the dances like I do and dancing in the scene where with the only punk kid in the early days, going to the local dub stuff, and crossing the barriers. I'm the only white girl in Jamaica at these reggae dances.
PSF: So do you see yourself as...
AU: The white girl?
PSF: No, that's not what I was saying...
AU: I'm not really the white girl because you know what? I am but I'm not really like a white girl 'cause that all dissolves and goes away when you break those barriers.
PSF: What I was gonna ask you is do you see yourself doing punky reggae nowadays as you were doing before?
AU: Yeah, and the roots of that. And don't forget, New Age Steppers 'cause I was gonna get there from your question about what good came out of dub and punk. I was gonna go to this. During, not after, that whole new wave where everyone was going punky reggae, thinking it was punky reggae... A great involvement came out of the New Age Steppers, which was the first space age reggae, which took dub to a different level again, to a rock crowd or a white crowd or a white listening reggae crowd. But dub in its true sense, without the punk. But it has a few edges of punk- that's the thing. Being who I was and that Adrian (Sherwood) was so into it that there is some elements of punk even in the New Age Steppers. But even on the record, there's a few elements of punk but it's more and more on the dubby, space side.
PSF: But what about the work that you're doing today- where does that fall into what you did then?
AU: That's exactly the evolution and what would be the Slits continued today. Hell yeah. We would sound like this today, what I'm doing now, 'cause I'm doing Slits type of stuff, which is punky reggae, and rootsy reggae and tribal reggae. It's all mixed, you know? So that was the Slits 'cause we weren't just punky reggae. We did some stuff that was more dubby, more punky, more tribal, more experimental, more space age, like the last album that the Slits did. The third album, the third age of the Slits, which was just The Giant Return of the Slits (actually the title is Return of the Giant Slits). Like a movie title, you know! And that was very dubby experimental and African experimental and all kinds of stuff. Space agey too. So it was more of that New Age Steppers thing too. So I would say that I'm a mixture of New Age Steppers continued, Slits continued and Ari continued.
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| Ari with PSF editor Robin Cook, mid 2000's Lower East Side NYC, after having an Indian dinner; photo by Jason Gross |
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